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Christianity Discuss and debate Christian beliefs including it's many denominations i.e. Catholicism, Protestantism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Baptism, Restorationism etc.



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Old 12-12-2007, 08:50 AM   #21 (permalink)
Tomasz
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There's a moment when Pontius Pilate tries to blackmail Jesus letting him know that he has control over him and may do to him whatever he pleases. Jesus is just a problem for Pilate, not an enemy. Pilate pushes Jesus to change his mind. Jesus answers : "You have no power over me, except for the power that my father has given to you"

To me it says that we all should uncompromising towards any blackmail. It's hardly attainable in practice. I try to inmagine myself if someone put the gun against the head of someone I love. Would I obey his orders fearing that if I didn't do it, he would pull a trigger. Probably I would

Of course I realize that If we all didn't negotiate blackmailers of all kind it would pay to be a blackmailer at all.

Recently the chiief of catholic-roman church b16 refused to meet Dalajlama. If I'm right that's against what Jesus preached
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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2 cor 5:


18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Jesus christ as the mediator has been given the task of reconciling the elect back to God. This he does or performs as The mediator between God and men.. 1 tim 2 5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I must say , many teach today that this mediatorialship is general and encompasses all men, however, we find that through further study of christ mediator office , that He is mediator of the new covenant..

heb 8:6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

heb 9

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So the passage in 1 tim 2 where it talks of christ being the mediator between God and men and then , it says in vs 4 that " who will that all men be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth" and in vs 6

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


This is referring to the elect of God or the house of Israel , the Israel of God..

Let us look at heb 8 regarding christ being a mediator of the new covenant and to whom are the recipients..

heb 8:

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

notice vs 8 , it is not to all the people of the world to whom this blessed mediatorialship is directed but to Gods chosen, you see Israel was a type of Gods chosen the church is the antitype, the election of grace..

Notice that this new covenant is based on promises that God will do for the elect.

#1. He will put His laws in their minds and write it in their hearts , the elect are not under law but under grace ..God will cause us to keep his statues and judgments..see ezk 36:


25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thats an individual blessing for each child of grace , you will be individually dealt with as to what and How God wants you to walk. He will cleanse us from our filthiness and Idols in our hearts, yes, children of grace may have filthiness and idols in their hearts but God has promised to cleanse us from them , for the blood of christ cleanses us from all sin..amen..

Mind you, this is not dependent on any synergism at all..none, because omnipotence is saying I will do it, I will cause it.

#2. Spiritual adoption vs 10 b He promises to be a God to the elect, when we have God as our God we have all our needs met, no matter what they are..phil 4:

19But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Paul says my God , paul knows Him as a covenant God , my God shall[ not might] but a promise ,He shall supply the needs of the saints..Are they spiritual ? Are the financial, is it health , whatever Divine wisdom deems a need its met..

#3 vs 11 Spiritual knowledge is promised to the elect:


11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Referring back to 1 tim 2 vs 4 who will have all men come to the knowledge of the truth and to be saved, is speaking about the elect, to whom spiritual knowledge , saving knowledge, is promised to via the new covenant..and our new covenant mediator being the prophet he is, communicates spiritual knowledge to his elect , to His sheep, and yes The holy spirit is employed in this regard..

If the timothy passage is kept in context of the mediatorialship of christ, as it is for the new covenant , much false teaching would be avoided and the arminian hersey of God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth will be exposed.. also it says from the greatest to the least, thats why paul said pray for all types, be it kings , governers , even common folk , for who knows whose an elect. and of course he did say pray for those in charge for peace sake as well in society.. so there are all types or levels of humanity who may be elect..we simply pray the lords will be done and that he will convert his people to the truth of the gospel..


Jesus christ the mediator of the new covenant, ensures the elects conversion to the truth..back to the point of the op, reconciliation. We hear all the time of Christ reconciling us back to God , that is God is reconciled to His people as in rom 5

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

but what is little emphasized is that not only has Christ reconciled us back to God , but because of our depravity by nature and the wicked hostility in our minds and heart , Jesus christ also reconciles us in our minds back to God...

See by nature , this is was it says about the elect: col 1 21

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Yes by the newbirth God through christ reconciles our minds and hearts and give us to see the truth of the gospel of our salvation..

False religonist say oh yes God is reconciled but look what paul says in 2 cor 5:

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

They take this to mean ok, God has done all he can do now its up to the sinner to take advantage of the situation and accept it ???

How far from the truth is this ? Dont these folk understand that Christ is the mediator between God and Man ? His Job is to reconcile both parties amen..

Look at gal 3

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

So who else is involved here ? The elect , the innate by nature hostility must be taken care of..Amen Jesus accomplished both..

Jesus christ brings the elect and God back into complete harmony with one another , so much so that it is termed being called into fellowship..

1 cor 1 9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 jn 1

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Amen the reason for the beeseching in 2 cor 5 20 is not a begging for folk to be ye reconciled by accepting jesus christ as your saviour , but its a divine summons to the election of grace to come into the exprience of a restored fellowhsip and having been already accepted of God.. The holy spirit of God has already given these vessels of mercy ears to hear , and they are being drawn to faith in the promises of the gospel...The new covenant mercies..into a spiritual knowledge of their salvation..

So , we can tell people in our witness for the truth that Jesus christ not only reconciled God to us but us to God as well..

what a great and complete Saviour He is for His people, he has reconciled both parties back into harmony and fellowship.

Religonist , its funny, they will admit that Almighty God has been reconciled by The death of christ..but that almighty man now has to be reconciled by something other than the death of christ

He reconciled the greater but for some reason he has left the lesser to fend for themselves..and now they must do what he did not do..

But my friends it is finished christ has done it all and now having been reconciled by the death of his Son , that same Son causes us to recieve the blessing.. rom 5

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement or reconciliation
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Old 01-27-2008, 03:51 AM   #23 (permalink)
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A lot of quoting, Beloved57, but I don't see much of substance for us to discuss.

Just because the Bible claims something doesn't mean it will be accepted as truth. And the words of Paul (or whoever wrote the various Epistles) do not impress me.

All I see here is one massive circle, a claim that a particular man was actually a god incarnate, and that somehow the death of this man "reconciled" humanity to an exceedingly powerful invisible being that was angry at us.

Nowhere do I see proof of the existence of this god, just some ancient writer(s) repeating himself/themselves about some covenant given to the special "elect" friends hand-picked by this god. Yet one more level of mythological complexity, possibly to explain mass defections in the ranks of the early Christians/Paulians.
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Old 01-27-2008, 04:34 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Beloved57,

I agree with Astreja. Your starting with assumptions that no one around here is likely to agree with, and so any arguments based on them are unconvincing. We would first need to take the discussion back a step and analyze your premises. Often, behind one set of premises, there are further premises. There are usually many layers to a person's belief system. So, bring forth your most basic beliefs and we can discuss those, and then from there we can move up to the complexities of Biblical interpretation.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:31 AM   #25 (permalink)
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ast says
Quote:
A lot of quoting, Beloved57, but I don't see much of substance for us to discuss
.

Well its too bad you cannot see my commentary on the scripture quotes, so just ignore the post no problem maybe you guys are inept at biblical argumentation, I have posted the same at other sites and get loads of comments and argumentation so no problem..
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:46 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Partly, we simply don't know you. Its better to post in other people's threads some before coming out with a long post like that. Its just human psychology... people don't like being preached at.

I'd be happy enough to discuss the Bible with you, but I'd prefer to start on a smaller scale. For instance, a single quote or a single belief is easier to get a handle of especially when I don't know the person well enough to sense where they're coming from.

This is an agnostic forum. Why does it surprise you that we aren't impressed by quotes from the Bible?
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Old 01-27-2008, 07:25 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmalade View Post
Partly, we simply don't know you. Its better to post in other people's threads some before coming out with a long post like that. Its just human psychology... people don't like being preached at.

I'd be happy enough to discuss the Bible with you, but I'd prefer to start on a smaller scale. For instance, a single quote or a single belief is easier to get a handle of especially when I don't know the person well enough to sense where they're coming from.

This is an agnostic forum. Why does it surprise you that we aren't impressed by quotes from the Bible?
Yeah but by this being a public forum thats a lame excuse..
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:01 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
ast says
Quote:
A lot of quoting, Beloved57, but I don't see much of substance for us to discuss
.

Well its too bad you cannot see my commentary on the scripture quotes, so just ignore the post no problem maybe you guys are inept at biblical argumentation, I have posted the same at other sites and get loads of comments and argumentation so no problem..
Well, of course I'm inept at biblical argumentation. I don't believe the bible to be the word of god.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:14 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
ast says
Quote:
A lot of quoting, Beloved57, but I don't see much of substance for us to discuss
.

Well its too bad you cannot see my commentary on the scripture quotes, so just ignore the post no problem maybe you guys are inept at biblical argumentation, I have posted the same at other sites and get loads of comments and argumentation so no problem..
Well, of course I'm inept at biblical argumentation. I don't believe the bible to be the word of god.

Well by being in a forum marked christianity you may get a few scriptures lol..
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