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The Bible Discussion of the bible and it's many flaws and why people still choose to believe.


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Old 09-13-2006, 10:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
Grant
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Default Changes in the Bible

A lot of people here are saying the Bible's message has changed over time. Can you support this? I'd like to have a single thread dedicated to this topic cause its coming up elsewhere a lot.

In short, show me a change in the Bible's message from old times.
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Old 09-14-2006, 07:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Are you asking about changes within the Bible, or in how Christians have understood the Bible?
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Changes in the Bible.
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, one that comes to mind, which I think even the Apostles had a hard time adapting to, was the change from a religion of a particular people to a religion for everyone. Jesus told the Apostles to go to "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20), and he is even more explicit on what they are supposed to do in Luke: "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Lk. 24:47-49)

Luke also records this in Acts: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about." (Acts 1:4) To this the Apostles respond with the question: "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus obviously wasn't going to reestablish the (literal) Kingdom of Israel at that point, so he tried to show them that the task for them was not to worry about the Kingdom of Israel, but just to go and spread the Gospel: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Acts 1:7-8)

The Holy Spirit came (Acts 2:1-4), but they still stayed around Jerusalem for at least a few years. Eventually they did start expanding, not out of missionary zeal, but rather because of persecution: "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria." (Acts 7:54-8:1) And even then they still didn't really get it: "Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews." (Acts 11:19)

Finally God decided that it was time for something a bit more straightforward, and gave Peter a vision. After this, Peter said: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all." (Acts 10:34-36) But because of the activity of Peter that followed this vision, he was criticized by Christians in Judea (Acts 11:1-2), so that he had to go there to explain that Gentiles were now "clean" (Acts 11:4-18).

Unfortunately, as Paul mentions often, many people still didn't get how far reaching the change was (Wiki has an interesting article on Judaizers). Thus, even some Christians who thought that Gentiles could be saved, also thought that these Gentiles had to follow Jewish practices like circumcision. Eventually Paul had to defend his practices, and the idea that Gentiles did not need to follow Jewish customs, at a Council of "the church and the apostles and elders" (Acts 15), where Paul, Peter, and James together managed to finally give some type of authoritative ruling (though Paul's teachings needed to be clarified again at another Council, as recorded in Acts 21).

Perhaps this is the opposite of what you were after, as you might have been asking about a "bad" or contradictory change. I would say that it was a change that is significant, but not because it makes the Bible look bad, but because it makes the Apostles look a bit... unsure of what to do. Anyway, those are my thoughts (at least for tonight).
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Old 09-14-2006, 10:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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whew! its 11:00 here so im gonna go to bed and address these in the morning... wait no i have school in the morning... then dental appointment and mowing lawns after school... tomorrow evening then

haha so ill try to post tomorrow evening
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Old 09-15-2006, 12:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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How about the original change in the bible when King James decided which books should be left in and which books should be left out. Did you know there were millions of prophets that wrote books about God and Jesus but were left out because they didn't preach the standards that Christianity wanted the populous to believe. The bible is often considered to be the standard of the Lord's word, but it is imperfect since from the beginning man has had his hands on it. From Christ's birth to present times the Bible has been translated into many languages and versions each time losing just a little bit of the original.

And just so there is no confusion I am a former Catholic who still believes that religion is a good idea if man would just stop telling me how to worship.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Responses to a few...

Quote:
Well, one that comes to mind, which I think even the Apostles had a hard time adapting to, was the change from a religion of a particular people to a religion for everyone. Jesus told the Apostles to go to "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20), and he is even more explicit on what they are supposed to do in Luke: "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Lk. 24:47-49)
The claim that Christianity was “a religion of a particular people” doesn’t seem to be supported.




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Luke also records this in Acts: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about." (Acts 1:4) To this the Apostles respond with the question: "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus obviously wasn't going to reestablish the (literal) Kingdom of Israel at that point, so he tried to show them that the task for them was not to worry about the Kingdom of Israel, but just to go and spread the Gospel: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Acts 1:7-8)
The “gift my Father promised” was the Holy Spirit. Check a few other translations. BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Acts 1;




Quote:
The Holy Spirit came (Acts 2:1-4), but they still stayed around Jerusalem for at least a few years. Eventually they did start expanding, not out of missionary zeal, but rather because of persecution: "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria." (Acts 7:54-8:1) And even then they still didn't really get it: "Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews." (Acts 11:19)
The Holy Spirit led them to speak in tongues. It doesn’t say anything about being led leave Jerusalem.

You’re right that they only left because of persecution. They were disobedient.

You’re also right that they were only telling Jews. Then “Then some of the men from Cyprus and Cyrene who had come to Antioch started talking to Greeks, giving them the Message of the Master Jesus. God was pleased with what they were doing and put his stamp of approval on it—quite a number of the Greeks believed and turned to the Master.” (Acts 11:20)


Mom’s making me get off the computer… sorry. I’ll get back with you when I can.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Maggielle View Post
How about the original change in the bible when King James decided which books should be left in and which books should be left out. Did you know there were millions of prophets that wrote books about God and Jesus but were left out because they didn't preach the standards that Christianity wanted the populous to believe. The bible is often considered to be the standard of the Lord's word, but it is imperfect since from the beginning man has had his hands on it. From Christ's birth to present times the Bible has been translated into many languages and versions each time losing just a little bit of the original.

And just so there is no confusion I am a former Catholic who still believes that religion is a good idea if man would just stop telling me how to worship.
The main reasons most of the gospels were left out of the Bible are because they were 2nd century and contradict themselves. King James wasn't even alive then.

The claim that "From Christ's birth to present times the Bible has been translated into many languages and versions each time losing just a little bit of the original." has no support that I've heard of.


Show me a change.
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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There are quite a few documented here

The ones I found interesting in this article were the discussion regarding 1 John 5:7 and I especially found it interesting "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20" - seems this was added much later.

Another interesting fact about the Gospel of John from the article

Quote:
John's Gospel also seems to have TWO conclusions. The whole of chapter 21 of St John's Gospel is probably an "addition." Quietly read the last two verses of chapter 20, verses 30-31. Doesn't it look like a conclusion, an ending on a farewell note? So is it any surprise when scholars tell us that chapter 21, i.e., the rest of the "gospel," wasn't written by St John?

Did Jesus single Peter out to feed his lambs/sheep? Well, not really. It is printed at John 21:25-27, but that is part of the "additional" non-John ending. So it is virtually worthless as scripture. But it has helped those who wanted a strong central authority in their synthesised religion, and went down the road of "Peter" and his supposed successors. (To WWW 24 Feb 04)
Was the forged ending to John's gospel done, 1. To centralise power, and 2. to harmonise the dates of the ascension? Chapter 21 to the end contains a post-crucifixion story of Jesus giving Peter and about six others a huge catch of fish at the Sea of Tiberias (Sea of Galilee), and the "Feed my lambs, feed my sheep" episode with Peter.
Why don't we start with these. Is this what you were hoping for?
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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More on two changes in the Bible with regard to at 1 John 5:7-8 and 1 Timothy 3:16

An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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