Belief a CHOICE? - Page 4

Piglet · 05-12-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstrats

So you’re saying that you cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe - be convinced, without a doubt - that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true? I was hoping to hear from someone who can.

rstrats

Without a doubt?

There is only one thing any human being can say is absolutely true, without a doubt.
It cannot be falsified or shown to be incorrect.

"I reason therefore i exist. And thus a reality 'is' to support this existance"

All else is belief. A knowing without absolute verification.
It is all that we can physically achieve in this reality.
Their are a million shades of belief.
All can be chosen, or not.

You can even choose to not believe you exist.
As some have tried to argue as possible to me on other forums.
LOL
"Your arguement is spurious i said
Why? they replied
Because you are not argueing, i am speaking to no-one"

Piglet

rstrats · 05-12-2007, 02:18 PM

pseudonous,

re: “I believe a person can consciously choose to think that a certain proposition is or isn't true.”

Are you using “think” and “believe” interchangeably?

re: “It’s just that you would have to have a want or desire to accept a new belief.”

By accept, do you mean to consciously CHOOSE to have a new belief? Also, can you consciously CHOOSE to desire something?

re: “...the only way you can consciously choose is to go out and observe the world around you and speak to different people. In this way you’re making a conscious choice to learn new things and if you want to adopt new ideas and disinherit old ones.”

When you say “choose”, are you saying to consciously CHOOSE to believe something? And if so, after you’ve gone out and observed the world around you and spoken to different people and learned new things, how do you use that information with regard to consciously CHOOSING to believe a thing? What do you do that would allow you to say:“Okay, I have obtained information about ‘X’ and while I still do not believe that ‘X’ exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that ‘X’ exists and - poof - I now believe that ‘X exists?

rstrats · 05-12-2007, 02:43 PM

Piglet,

re: “Of course. I choose to believe you believe you cannot consciously choose to believe.”

I would guess that the reason that I believe that I cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things is because of the fact that I have never been able to do it.

re: “...i find it very difficult to believe anyone can believe that humans cannot choose to believe.”

I would guess that the reason that I believe that people cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things is the fact that no one I have asked to do so has been able to demonstrate that ability. However, if it is possible, I would very much like to learn how it is done. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you the same thing that I asked Sapphira1212 in post #7 and Fire Legion in post #21 (neither of whom have responded by the way).

rstrats · 05-12-2007, 02:51 PM

Piglet,

re: Without a doubt?...There are a million shades of belief.”

I don’t see how. Either you believe something or you don’t.

Piglet · 05-12-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstrats

Piglet,
re: Without a doubt?...There are a million shades of belief.”
I don’t see how. Either you believe something or you don’t.

rstrats

False, belief has a gradient. It is not black and white.
Only
"i reason therefore i exist" is black and white [an absolute]
EVERYTHING else in the realm of human understanding, is grey.

Do you exist?

Does the moon exist?

Do angels exist?

Piglet

PS. Quote you,,
"Either 'you' believe something or you dont",
speak for yourself please.
And why do you believe that? You were not born knowing it.
Did someone tell you that it was a fact?
If so, why did you believe them? You chose to?
If not, you chose to believe it on your own without prompting.

And what of the 3rd option, neither belief or disbelief
For example. Agnosicism
Is there a 'god'
Dont know
Is there NO 'god'
Dont know

So on the question of the existance of a god, what is piglets 'belief'.?
no reply

rstrats · 05-12-2007, 03:08 PM

Piglet,

re: “Do you exist?”

I believe that I do.

re: “Does the moon exist?”

I believe that it does.

re: “Do angels exist?”

I have no belief with regard to the existence or non-existence of angels.

Gringo · 05-12-2007, 04:56 PM

I would guess that the reason that I believe that people cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things is the fact that no one I have asked to do so has been able to demonstrate that ability. However, if it is possible, I would very much like to learn how it is done. If you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you the same thing that I asked Sapphira1212 in post #7 and Fire Legion in post #21 (neither of whom have responded by the way).[/quote]

If one can CHOOSE to beleive this or that, I would still believe in Santa Claus

rstrats · 05-12-2007, 06:03 PM

Piglet,

Wow, more than that, wowowow . In 10 years of posting on a multitude of message boards I have never seen a poster reply to subsequent posts by editing their previous ones. You are a true anomaly.

re: “False, belief has a gradient. It is not black and white.”

What is your definition of “believe”?

pseudonous · 05-12-2007, 10:45 PM

Og,

You confuse me. Are you saying, people have reason for choosing to believe a thing and that will is an illusion. These statements sound contradictory to me.

pseudonous · 05-12-2007, 11:41 PM

rstrats,

"Are you using 'think' and 'believe' interchangeably?"

Yes. I was using think and belief interchangably. I meant "think" in terms of "holding an opinion".

"By accept, do you mean to consciously CHOOSE to have a new belief? Also, can you consciously CHOOSE to desire something? "

I mean accept as in finally hold the belief after having already consciously made the decision to adopt a belief. And yes, I can consciously choose to desire something. I call it self motivation.

"When you say 'choose', are you saying to consciously CHOOSE to believe something?"

Yes.

"And if so... how do you use that information with regard to consciously CHOOSING to believe a thing?"

You look for benifits to yourself that you would gain if you held that belief.

“Okay, I have obtained information about ‘X’ and while I still do not believe that ‘X’ exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that ‘X’ exists and - poof - I now believe that ‘X exists?"

You don't just obtain information about 'X'. Certainly you focus on 'X' but any other information you gain could be potentially useful. You look through this new information for benfits that believing "X" exist would bring you. This is why you must consult the outside world. Obviously if you didn't have enough reason to believe in "X" in the first place, you need to see the world from other points of view inorder to find the reason(s). The choice enters the equation when you first decide you want to believe in the existance of "X", not when you end up believing in the existance of "X".

Hope this clarifies my view.