Vinterland

Faith, you have condemned yourself under your own standards with your condescending attitude, and you really aren't showing the love of your own god. Christian's in general really need to work on how they evangelise, and you're no exception because you too come off as riding a high horse. I leave you with my favorite quote I use to Christian's and agnostic-atheists alike:

If you believe, do not look for evidence
If you disbelieve, no evidence will ever satisfy you

^If you agree with the above as you should, then you should realise that being unChristian-like over the internet isn't going to win a non-believer over to your own immortality system. And I'm sure someone else could say it better, but the fact is that you have faith, ignorance, or whatever you like to call it, and we don't. Peace.

Faith

I know I have taught wrongly, allowing my personal feeling to get in the way. I with God as my witness, apollogise.

But now which of you can say God doesn't love you, after sending his son to die for you? his perfect son who has never sinned, to die for sinners? And How can you say that God killing is a "contradiction"? God can kill if he wants, we all deserve to die! And it's called punishment, which last time I checked, we all deserve, ALL OF US, me, you, everyone. But does God do that, no. He has given us a chance for eternal life, something we far from deserve, I can tell you that...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God does not want you to perish. He is rich in mercy and compassion, and has provided a way for you to be forgiven. He has invited you to come to Him for a full pardon and receive the free gift of Eternal Life. You cannot earn it, and you do not deserve it, but God is offering it to you as proof of His love for you.

Imagine you are standing in front of a judge, guilty of multiple serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. Your apologies and good works cannot erase your crimes; therefore you must be punished. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you don’t have two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence when someone you don't even know steps in and pays your fine for you! The court accepts the money and declares that you are free to go. The law has been satisfied, your debt has been paid in full, and the stranger’s sacrifice was a demonstration of his love for you. That’s what God did for you 2000 years ago.

The Bible says that the God of the Universe became a man (Jesus Christ), and suffered and died on the cross for your sins and mine so that we could be set free. Then he rose again from the dead and defeated death! It's as simple as this—we broke the Law, and Jesus paid our fine.

"God demonstrated His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13)

Do you see God’s great love for you? Do you see your need for His forgiveness? Do what He commands and “Repent…that your sins may be wiped out and times of refreshing may come from the Lord.” (Acts 3:19) You must turn away from sin and turn to God. Desire to have NOTHING to do with sin, and surrender your life to the One who can save you. Jesus died to set you free, and then he rose from death to be your Lord. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If you will confess and forsake your sins (repent) and trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, God will forgive you and you’ll pass from death to life.

If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalms 51 and make it your prayer.

What does it mean to "put your faith in Jesus Christ?" It means to personally trust in Jesus the same way you’d trust in a parachute if you had to jump 25,000 feet out of an airplane. You wouldn’t just "believe" in the parachute; you would put it on! In the same way, the Bible says, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ..." and you will be saved. There are millions of people who "believe" Jesus exists . . . but they have not put on the Savior—there’s a BIG difference. And the difference will be obvious when you “jump” through the door of death.

Today, with all your heart—turn away from sin, and surrender your life to Jesus Christ. Please don’t put it off till later. You may die today and then it will be too late. You may not yet have all the answers to your questions, but better to put on the parachute first and then ask questions, then to pass through the door unprepared, grasping for the parachute when it’s too late. You can pray something like this—"Dear God, today I turn from all my sins (name them), and I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Please forgive me, and grant me your gift of everlasting life. Amen." There is nothing magic about these words—it is the attitude of your heart that God cares about.

God will transform you from the inside out. You will think and feel differently as you learn to trust and obey Him. God will give you new strength to live right and love Him above all else. Read your Bible daily and obey His Word. You can trust God—He loves you and will always be faithful. To help you get started, you may also want to read “10 Principles for New and Growing Christians.”

If you've decided to reject the gift of forgiveness and you die in your sins, there is no hope for you. There is no purgatory. The wrath of God abides on you and you will spend eternity in Hell. Please take the time to read what Hell is like according to the Bible.

Faith

WHAT HELL IS LIKE...

There are those who accept that Hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being “punished” merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.

However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in Hell (Luke 16:19-31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of “torment.” If Hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus’ statements about Hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to “go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).

Daniel 12:2


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hell can seem alot easier when you aren't already experiencing it. Many accept it as punishment, not realising the true pain of it. No matter how strong your "will" is, you will feel shame, when you see those up in heaven from hell, who are happy to have obeyed God, and you are thirsty, shamed, sad, burning, and being eaten by worms which do not die. We are to fear the lord and his punishment, or as you have proven yourself, we just cease to obey...

Og

You miss out on so much reality. It sucks that you throw your whole life into this dogma and miss out on what is there for all to see if you just use your eyes and brain.

How much must it suck to just check your brain on the shelf when you get up in the morning. Critical thinking, doubt.... I'm sure it must be applied in some portions of your life, Faith. Without it, people don't survive. I just don't get why people like you don't apply it to all portions of your life.

If you think any of this christian outreach crap is new to any of us, you're mistaken. This is certainly a mainly western culture agnostic community forum.

I continue to wish that you open your eyes and gain the strength and faith to doubt instead of falling into this perversion that man has generated over the last 1700 years. A perversion of buddhism even.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Ignorance more often begets confidence than knowledge... It's a conundrum.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

MartheGod

Thanks for your apology.

Again, there is not enough proof that God exists and therefore I don't know whether to believe in him or not. As I said before, depending on where you were born, you wouldn't believe in the Christian God. I don't think it makes any sense that God has his son die for the sins that God has a problem with. As I said before, God created us with these sins. He created us to have feelings of anger, jealousy, and lust. And he tells us not to do these things? That makes no sense. He didn't have to have Jesus die over our "sins." Since he's all-powerful, he could have done anything other than kill his only son.

If we all deserve to die, guess what? God DOES NOT LOVE YOU. If your mother or father or guardian or whatever told you that you should be dead, would you believe she/he loved you? That is a contradiction. An all-loving God can't kill people. That's a lie. God is like an abusive parent. He's like a mother who gave birth to her child, hates her, and punishes her. A God cannot kill people or tell us that we deserve to die and he be considered all-loving. Just because he supposedly created us does not give him the right to kill us.

Oh, I don't deserve eternal life? As I stated before, this is like a mother hating her child because now she cannot live her dreams. Does that make sense? Compassionate? Merciful? Faith, do you understand that God HATES you? The way you are describing him is that he basically hates you for breathing and he's giving you a chance...because he feels guilty because he hates you? I don't even know. God sounds like he has mental problems or something. If he really was compassionate and loving and merciful, he'd show himself to EVERYONE so everyone would worship him and everyone can go to Heaven. However, the fact that his ego must be gloated before he sends you to Heaven has nothing to do with compassion or mercy. That's egotistical.

Um, again, don't compare a judge to God. If a judge did what God supposedly does, he would send you to jail for being alive. That makes no sense.

No, I can't see "God's love." I don't see how threatening me with eternal torture (I'm not using punishment b/c that sounds better than torture, which is what it really is) constitutes love. If you'd just listen to yourself instead of repeating what you have heard, you'd realize that everything contradicts one another. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in God, but that you should realize that God cannot be called All-loving, compassionate and merciful.

Yes, Faith. We believe that Hitler is being punished with eternal sleep. Yes, it's less exciting and fulfilling than your image of Hell, but that's what we believe. It sucks, but that's life. The scary thing is that you believe everyone who does not believe in God should be punished like Hitler. That's pretty sick...

Faith

And how can you say he doesn't have the right? If i spoke like you did, I wouldn't be syrprised to wake up in hell. Thirsty, hungry and in pain for eternity. I would deserve that and I would expect no less from God. In fact, I myself do not deserve to go to heaven, and no one could say otherwise. I disobeyed I don't know how many of God's command's, and yet he chose me to speak as a servant for him? I can honestly say I would not be more honured.

I made an idol in my head of a god who just because he was good and loving would not send anyone to hell. That just because he was good, no matter how people lived, into heaven they would go. I know better now, and you say something bout me becoming Christian cause of where I lived???

I always naturaly believed in God, I think God kept me safe because he had a purpouse for me. For the last 4 years till now I have lived with my father who always got drunk, smashed things left and right and who constantly did drugs. You can call it an escape all you want, but during thw whole 4 years of experiencing this and growing up around these things, I always hated drugs, always hated alcohol, and never turned from God. I grew up around this, in a secular school, never going to church never being taught about God. And here I am talking to you now.

No, the holy spirit as I said, is not bound to "where you live". I follow god because he chose me. Why? Don't ask me, all I can tell you is I DON'T DESERVE IT. but of course, God hates me enough to choose me and accept me to be his servant so that I may correct myself and be forgiven, and enter his kingdom of eternal happiness... Right.

Don't even say one more thing about God hating nayone, because that has got to be the most blasphemous thing I have ever heard. Whenever I hear the word's "You saved a wretch like me" it reminds me of myself.

God is all loving, and just because hs punishes which we rightfully deserve, does not mean otherwise. Listen to yourself talk, and tell me that God should just say, "Oh no thats ok. I'm all loving so that means I have to let people so what they want" That's not what all loving is. I'd say that would be more all foolish. Which God will never be.

Vinterland

Not only have you "taught wrongly," but you've also wrongly judged many of us. You should apologise for that too, but quite frankly, the word of a Christian Fundamentalist means nothing.

Again, there is no scrap of evidence to even suggest that Christ was Resurrected. As both you and I know, it takes the faith of primitive religious folk-illogical and irrational- to believe in that crap.

I will reiterate the bottom line to you once more-you have faith and we don't. You don't believe in Zeus for the very same reasons that we don't believe in your god, and I can safely say that Jesus will NEVER come down from the stars and reign for 1,000 years. Never.

My last advice to you is, if you want to become a good Christian and have good ethics, then you must realise the Bible is not the, "literal, Inerrant Word of God." As I've previously stated in another thread, believing in such pointless doctrine is not a requirement for a being a Christian. This Fundamentalism breeds hypocrisy, immorality, bigotry, and injustice, and that's precisely how we all see you. If you're interested in how to become a respectable and moral Christian, feel free to send me a pm and I will link you some great material and answer any questions you may have, and if not, then you are missing out on an opportunity to really understand your own religion even better and become a better person.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

Vinterland

In respect to Biblical Scriptures, you are correct about this. The Christian god does have the right, and it is moral, loving, etc. Remember you are talking to agnostics, and many aren't knowledgeble in the literal truth of the Bible. I honestly advise you discontinue posting here because you're not gaining any ground here, and there's no point in wielding a dull blade. You're getting very defensive and incoherent again. If you will, take me up on that offer.

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

mister_lister

Faith have you ever asked yourself, "why does the God of the Bible ( Alpha and Omega, all powerfull-knowing) limit himself to blood letting as a solution for sin?" I know the Bible states that this is the only way God can redeem mankind, but why? Is the God of the Bible so impotent, are his hands so tied (by his own convuluted rules) that he is unable to fix things without sacrifice of his own "son" and the myriad of animals before him? In what way does this set Him apart from other ancient myths of the region? Killing some heffer or human being is going to redeem me to my creator? I think not. The mere idea of faith in this is supposedly going to wipe my slate clean OR WORSE a child molester, Murderer, etc... slate clean? Sorry.

I find this a HUGE flaw of the Bible. In what way does a sacrifice of an animal or human being REALLY SOLVE anything? What a primative and brutal solution. Why would I want to worship a God that is so inept and bloody?

__________________
________________________________________________

"The trouble is not with what we don't know, it is with what we think we know that just ain't so". ~ Mark Twain