anonfaery

"quite a ways beyond logical thinking"? Personally I think it shows blind ignorance and a lack of mindfulness.

Faith

No dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible. hmmm, ok...

Job 40:15: Look at the monster behemoth; I created him and I created you. He eats grass like a cow

16: but what strength there is in his body, and what power there is in his muscles!

17: His tail stands up like a cedar, and the muscles in his legs are strong.

18: His bones are as strong as bronze, and is legs are like iron bars.

19: The most amazing of all my creatures! Only his creator can defeat him.

40:1 Can you catch leviathan with a fish hook or tie his tongue down with a rope?

2: Can you put a rope through his snout or put a hook through his jaws?

3:Will he beg you to let him go? Will he plead with you for mercy?

4:Will he make an agrement with you and promise to serve you forever?

5:Will you tie him like a pet bird, like something to ammuse your servant girls?

6:Will fisherman bargain over him? Will merchants cut him up to sell?

7:Can you fill his hide with fishing spears or pierce his head with a harpoon?

8:Touch him and you'll never try it again; you'll never forget the fight!

9:Anyone who sees leviathan loses courage and falls to the ground.

10:When he is aroused, he is fierce; no one would dare to stand before him.

11:Who can attack him and still be safe? No one in all the world can do it.

12:let me tell you about leviathans legs and describe how great and strong he is.

13:No one can tear off his outer coat or pierce the armour he wears.

14:Who can make him open his jaws, ringed with those terrifying teeth?

15:His back is made of rows of shields fastened together and hard as stone.

16:Each one is joined so tight to the next, not even a breath can come between.

17:They are fastened so firmly together that nothing can ever pull them apart.

18:Light flashes when he sneezes, and his eyes glow like the rising sun.

19:Flames blaze from his mouth, and streams of sparks fly out.

20:Smoke comes pouring out of his nose, like smoke from weeds burning under a pot.

21:His breath starts fires burning; flames leap out of his mouth.

22:His neck is so powerful that all who meet him are terrified.

23:There is not a weak spot in his skin; it is as hard and unyielding as iron.

24:His stony heart is without fear, as unyielding and hard as millstone.

25:When he rises up, even the strongest are frightened; they are helpless with fear.

26:There is no sword that can wound him; no spear or arrow or lance that can harm him.

27:For him, iron is as flimsy as straw, and bronze as soft as rotten wood.

28: There is no arrow that can make him run, rocks thrown at him are like bits of straw.

29:To him a club is a pierce of straw, and he laughs when men throw spears.

30:His belly is like jagged pieces of pottery; they tear up the muddy ground like a threshing sledge.

31:He chirns up the sea like boiling water and makes it bubble like a pot of oil.

32:He leaves a shining path behind him and turns the sea to white foam.

33:There is nothing on earth to compare with him; he is a creature that has no fear.

34:He looks down on even the proudest animals;he is king of all wild beasts.

Then Job answered the Lord

42:2 I know, Lord, that you are all powerful; thast you can do everything you want.

3: You ask how I dare question your wisdom when I am so very ignorant. I talked about things I did not understand, about marvels too great for me to know.

4:You told me to listen while you spoke and try to answer your questions.

5:Then I knew only what others had told me, but now I have seen you with my own eyes.

6: So I am ashamed of all I had said and repent in dust and ashes.



The bold part was bolded by me for a reason. How can man question what he hasn't created, or tell God how science says things work? We are man, created from God, which many try to deny and find supposed "errors" in the bible, and such men have even corrupted believers in Christ into believeing their ways. It's a shame really. "So presumptuous. Such rash ignorance and littleness of man". How very true.

Faith

When a young man once looked at me and said, "I find it hard to believe some of the things in the Bible," I smiled and asked, "What's your name?" When he said, "Paul," I casually answered, "I don't believe you." He looked at me questioningly. I repeated, "What's your name?" Again he said, "Paul," and again I answered, "I don't believe you." Then I asked, "Where do you live?" When he told me, I said, "I don't believe that either." You should have seen his reaction. He was angry. I said, "You look a little upset. Do you know why? You're upset because I didn't believe what you told me. If you tell me that your name is Paul, and I say, 'I don't believe you,' it means that I think you are a liar. You are trying to deceive me by telling me your name is Paul, when it's not." Then I told him that if he, a mere man, felt insulted by my lack of faith in his word, how much more does he insult Almighty God by refusing to believe His Word. In doing so, he was saying that God isn't worth trusting -- that He is a liar and a deceiver. The Bible says, "He who does not believe God has made Him a liar," (1 John 5:10). It also says, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief. . ." (Hebrews 3:12). Martin Luther said, "What greater insult . . . can there be to God, than not to believe His promises."
I have heard people say, "But I just find it hard to have faith in God," not realizing the implications of their words. These are the same people who often believe the weather forecast, believe the newspapers, and trust their lives to a pilot they have never seen whenever they fly in a plane. We exercise faith every day. We trust our car's brakes. We trust our history books, our medical books, and we trust elevators. Yet elevators can let us down. History books can be wrong. Planes can crash. How much more then should we trust the sure and true promises of Almighty God. He will never let us down . . . if we trust Him.

I have often heard cynics say, "The Bible is full of mistakes." It is. The first mistake was when man rejected God, and the Scriptures show men and women making the same tragic mistake again and again. It's also full of what seem to be contradictions. For example, the Scriptures tell us "with God, nothing shall be impossible" (Luke 1:37). We are told that there is nothing Almighty God can't do. Yet we are also told that it is "impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 6:18). So there is something God cannot do! There's an obvious "mistake" in the Bible. The answer to this dilemma is to be found in the lowly worm.
Do you know that it would be impossible for me to eat worms, although I have seen it done. I once saw a man on TV butter his toast, then pour on a can of live, fat, wriggling, blood-filled worms. He carefully took a knife and fork, cut into his moving meal, and ate it. It made me feel sick. It was disgusting. The thought of chewing cold, live worms is so repulsive, so distasteful, I can candidly say it would be impossible for me to eat them, even though I have seen it done. It is so abhorrent, I draw on the strength of the word "impossible" to substantiate my claim.

Lying, deception, bearing false witness, etc., is so repulsive to God, so disgusting to Him, so against His holy character, that the Scriptures draw on the strength of the word "impossible" to substantiate the claim. He cannot, could not, and would not lie.

That means that in a world where we are continually let down, we can totally rely on, trust in, and count on His promises. They are sure, certain, indisputable, true, trustworthy, reliable, faithful, unfailing, dependable, steadfast, and an anchor for the soul. In other words, you can truly believe them, and because of that, you can throw yourself blindfolded and without reserve, into His mighty hands. He will never, ever, let you down. Do you believe that?

Og

Heh.. I thought that was going to be all clever when it started out talking about not believing his name was paul. Something to do with the author of most of the new testament and such.

Anyway, it quickly devolved into sillyness. Welcome faith.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Faith

What is the welcome for?

Faith

I am not welcome, nor do I wish to be. And you say silliness, how? Because it tells you exactly everything you are?

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief. . ."

And when people say they find it hard to have faith in God, Quote, These are the same people who often believe the weather forecast, believe the newspapers, and trust their lives to a pilot they have never seen whenever they fly in a plane.

These are people who say that creation was always here, but for their to be creation, their must be a creator. People actualy have no reason to not believe in God, just in general they rather would not, why would they want to think they are responsible for their actions towards their creator.

You know, when I say to people, God knows what you were going to do before you were even born, before the world was created when the Almighty God spoke but a few words and the heaven and the earth came into being, they say, "But if he knew then why doesn't he keep them from being born" or something similar. well, that kind of would take away the point of him giving free will now wouldn't it? If you were only allowed to live because you were good, then what glory would their be for God, how could your love for him mean anything? You only love because thats what he made you to do. That is why he gave choice, so when people decide to do good, they do it out of a sincere heart.

But science tries to fathom things as serious as love, compassion, and the people who have good hearts, as just another scientific equation, that has no meaning or purpose. What about when there is a poor man on the street, why is he on the street? People say, "See, if there was a God, then how could this happen?" Well, for starters, sin. You ask God to do it, but if we have everything we wanted and all had perfectly happy lives, how much do you think we would be concerned about God, we have everything we need, right?

Wrong. But the reason that poor man is on the street, is because of sin. God never meant for their to be any man to rule over his fellow man. And it is because of this that man is in the street, begging the rich for money, but as Jesus said, "It would be harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, then to fit a camel through the eye of a needle" and he also said, "Do not gather up your riches on earth, where moth and dust corrupt, and thieves break in and steal. But gather up your riches in heaven, where moth and dust do not corrupt, and thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"
I tell you now, that poor man, is a rich man indeed. But when someone walksover that poor man when they have not much money themselves, and gives it all to him, what made him do that? Was it just some scientific chemical as scientists would say, or was it the goodness in his heart. As I said at the beginning science tries to fathom such things numericaly and into equasions. I feel so bad for them. Love is nothing but chemicals, and so on. They really believe in everything just being here already, and that nothing has a purpouse.

Quote OG's signature, "God is just a shadow which science hasn't pierced yet." Science can't measure love, it can't pierce God who created it. Science can measure the dimensions of a flower, but it can't measure why they are beautiful. Science can tell which tunes in music are harmonous, but it can't measure why music is harmonous to the soul. Just the same, science can't measure why out of the good of someones heart which God gave them, a person would walk over to a poor man and say, "Here, take it all. What good will it do me?"

Og

You missed the entirety of my signature. Its an important pair of comments. It's not to be taken as individual components because it's just a sound bite and the sayings are cross referencing each other.

I find this silly. I can ask you how much you love various things in your life and you can give me an answer. Or are you incapable of understanding love? Do you not know what you mean when you say "I love something?" I wouldn't think it'd have any meaning if you didn't understand what you were saying. So even if it's as simple as "i love this" and "I don't love that" or even "i love everything," we have just made a measurement of love We have illustrated something about it.

The sillyness is that people think that the scientific approach must apply a voltage meter to everything it sees.

You are welcome faith. I'm sorry that you feel so angry about that idea, or that you want to feel rejected, but it just ain't the case.

That's the cool thing about agnosticism and the scientific approach. You're welcome here. Bring on the arguments in favor or against anything. It can only lead to a better understanding of what is real and what is not. In fact, that's the only way that agnostics get to truth. It's by attacking ideas and seeing how they stand up.

In the same way a gold smith scrapes and burns and melts away impurities in gold. I am not angry at all about people coming here and presenting a christian point of view!

So, again, Welcome!

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I'm curious what you mean by this. I don't think the faith and belief you're talking about are the same thing. We accept the weather forecast because it seems to be accurate (i.e. it's useful for making predictions). We believe the newspapers because of the integrity of the individual papers in question based on past documented experience of the correlating with accuracy (note that we don't "Believe" the junk tabloids at the supermarket).

We also don't really trust our lives to a pilot we have never seen. We trust our lives to a crew of people who we know (because it's a regulated profession with external controls) that the people in control have backups and support and have much training and communications with other people on the ground and have large amounts of technology backing them up.

You make a great case for agnosticism by illustrating lots of examples where people have applied the scientific method to create a situation that has value and is something that can be used for predictions. All of your examples are perfect illustrations of situations where people use repeatable and ongoing evidence in order to make determinations about choices in their life.

Then you present an idea of god which does not have the same rigorous approach to understanding. In fact, using the rigorous approach that landed us at the other "beliefs" is necessarily shunned by your own quotes such as:

They are evil to question. So your examples other than faith in god are where people DO repeatedly express unbelief and require repeatable and demonstrable evidence for the assertions you've described.

So your first example of "faith in god" (necessarily shunning incredulity) is not at all like your other examples (weather, pilots, etc).

You make a great case for agnosticism though! I certainly wouldn't get on a plane if I wasn't at least remotely aware of a bit of regulation for my safety! And I don't think you could expect any rational human being to act any differently!

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Faith

"We do not understand so that we can believe, we believe in order to understand."

Many people do not believe God because they do not understand him. And OG, don't say you do, because no man understands God and why he does what he does. People try a scientific aproach to show that he does or does not exist, but neither can be accomplished. You can not prove that God exists or prove that he doesn't with science, because God can not be described numericly or in equasions.

Nobody created God, nobody was there to teach him, nobody was there to show him morals, or teach him good and evil. This is what confuses people so much, because they did have a beginning, they do have to learn. Science was meant for us to learn about what God gave us, about his beautiful creations, but as I said, nobody wants to believe they have a responsibility towards their creator, so they use science strangely, not thinking, wait, how can I prove God wrong with his own creation?

You know, the Bible mentions a city that God told the people that for seven days they had to walk around the city each day, and once they were done, the walls would collapse. Now, scientists said, "This is impossible. It can't be done" as usual. But they discovered a city that has its walls collapsed and no signs of them being battered in whatsoever. They also found a city that had walls with no straw. Back then, this was impossible to make walls without straw, and scientists said once again, "This is impossible" So what did they find, a city that had walls built with no straw, leaving the scientists awe struck.

You also have to remember that Christmas is in memory of Christ, Good Friday, Easter, all in memory of him. Christmas on the day he came, Easter the day Jesus rose from death, and Good Friday is when Jesus died on the cross. But people can remember a man who gave children toys (Nicholas), and forget Christ who died for those who even beat him and spat on him, and scoffed. Science, as usual, is used as a weapon against God, and declares this "impossible". Science is for people who believe only what they see with their own eyes.

Who doesn't believe what they see with their own eyes, why is God going to show himself, so that everyone believes only cause they saw, and not because of their faith. They belive cause they have proof, not faith. And who deserves reward for believing in what they see with their own eyes.

Scientists will say their is no Satan, but I swear to you when these words come out of their mouth, it really comes from the mouth of Satan. Satan works on the minds of people, and turns Gods people, Gods creation, and anything he can corrupt into a tool, a weapon against God. And people will say that this isn't true, but that is why their minds are so easily corrupted. You don't really care to refuse sin, because you do not believe that their is any punishment for it, or anyone controling you.

Notice how it is so much easier to do evil, than good? Can you tell me that one time you have done something evil, and didn't know it was wrong? God does not force things on anyone, but Satan does. That is why people have such a difficult time in their faith.

Here let me tell you a true story...

It was late in December, 1996. A large family gathered in Los Angeles for the joyous occasion of wrapping Christmas presents. It was a big family because it was the product of two marriages. There were so many gathered that night, five of the children slept in the garage. It was a converted structure, kept warm during the cold night by an electric heater which sat by the door.
During the early hours of the morning, the heater suddenly burst into flames, blocking the doorway. In seconds the room became a blazing inferno. The frantic 911 call revealed the unspeakable terror of the moment. One of the children could be heard screaming, "I'm on fire!" The distraught father vainly rushed into the flames to try and save his beloved children. He received burns to 50% of his body. Tragically, all five of the children burned to death. They died because steel bars on the windows of the garage thwarted their escape. There was only one door, and that was stopped by the flames.

You are back in time. It's minutes before the heater burst into flames. You peer through the darkness at the peaceful sight of five sleeping youngsters. You know that at any moment the room is going to erupt into an inferno and burn the flesh of horrified children. Can you in good conscience walk away? No! You must awaken them, and warn them to run from that death trap!

The world sleeps peacefully in the darkness of ignorance. There is only one Door by which they may escape death. The steel bars of sin prevent their salvation, and at the same time call for the flames of Eternal Justice. What a fearful thing Judgment Day will be! The fires of the wrath of Almighty God will burn for eternity. The Church has been entrusted with the task of awakening them before it's too late. We cannot turn our backs and walk away in complacency. Think of how the father ran into the flames. His love knew no bounds, and our devotion to the sober task that God has given us will be in direct proportion to our love for the lost. There are only a few who run headlong into the flames to warn them to flee (Luke 10:2). Please be one of them. We really have no choice. The Apostle Paul said, "Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!" (1 Corinthians 9:16).

It was the "Prince of Preachers," Charles Spurgeon, who said the words, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." A Christian cannot be apathetic about the salvation of the world. The love of God in him will motivate him to seek and save that which is lost.

You probably have a limited amount of time after your conversion to impact your unsaved friends and family with the Gospel. After the initial shock of your conversion, they will put you in a neat little ribbon-tied box, and keep you at arm's length. So it's important that you take advantage of the short time you have while you still have their ears.

Here's some advice that will save you a great deal of grief. As a new Christian, a friend of mine did almost irreparable damage by acting like a wild bull in a crystal showroom. He bullied his mom, his dad, and many of his friends into making a "decision for Christ". He was sincere, zealous, loving, kind, and stupid. He didn't understand that salvation doesn't come through making a "decision," but through repentance, and repentance is God-given (see 2 Timothy 2:25). The Bible teaches that no one can come to the Son unless God "draws" him. If you are able to get a decision but they have no conviction of sin, you will almost certainly end up with a still-born on your hands.

In his"zeal without knowledge" he actually inoculated the very ones he was so desperately trying to reach. There is nothing more important to you than the salvation of your loved ones, and you don't want to blow it. If you do, you may find that you don't have a second chance. Fervently pray for them, thanking God for their salvation. Let them see your faith. Let them feel your kindness, your genuine love, and your gentleness. Buy gifts for no reason. Do chores when you are not asked to. Go the extra mile. Put yourself in their position. You know that you have found everlasting life. Death has lost its sting! Your joy is unspeakable -- but as far as they are concerned, you have been brain-washed. You have become part of a weird sect. So your loving actions will speak more loudly than ten thousand eloquent sermons.

It is because of these thoughts that you should hold back from verbal confrontation until you have knowledge that will guide your zeal. Pray for wisdom and for a sensitivity to God's timing. You may have only one shot, so make it count. Keep your cool. If you don't, you may end up with a lifetime of regret. Believe me. It is better to hear a loved one or a close friend say, "Tell me about your faith in Jesus Christ," rather than you saying, "Sit down. I want to talk to you."

It is important to realize that we should share our faith with others whenever we can. The Bible says that there are only two times we should do this -- "in season and out of season" (2 Timothy 4:2). The Apostle Paul pleaded for prayer for his own personal witness. He said, ". . . that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak," (Ephesians 6:19-20).

Remember that you have the sobering responsibility of speaking to other peoples' loved ones. Many times when you open your mouth for the Gospel, you may be the answer to the earnest prayer of another Christian. Perhaps he has cried out to God that He would use a faithful witness to speak to his beloved mom or dad, and you are that answer to prayer. You are that true and faithful witness that God wants to use.

Never lose sight of the world and all its pains. Keep the fate of the ungodly before your eyes. Too many of us settle down on a padded pew and become introverted. Our world becomes a monastery without walls. Our friends are confined solely to those within the Church, when Jesus was the "friend of sinners." So take the time to deliberately befriend them for the sake of their salvation. Remember that each and every person who dies in their sins has an appointment with the Judge of the Universe. Hell opens wide its terrible jaws. There is no more sobering task than to be entrusted with the Gospel of Salvation -- working with God for the eternal well-being of dying humanity.

This story made me understand and fear for the blind people in this world alot more than I did and understand what it is I must do.If I don't then I am saying that I don't care for the souls of other and allowing Satan to continue his work.

Og

Heh.. oki dokey mate. I guess it boils down to you and what you do. Continue on with this beautiful illusion you have and enjoy your life with it and be fabulously happy with it and the way it makes you feel. No skin off my back

If you participate in discussion, however, you may come to find that the reason that you don't believe in the other gods of the world religions is the same reason I don't believe in your god. And you won't have any good reason to indicate that I should pick yours over others.

And I don't think anyone in western culture has any problem understanding the impact of christianity on the western world.

I prefer the eastern approach with identification with the divine (i.e. "I and the father are one." John 10:30)

I recognize that it's integral to your ideas of religion to outreach and spread your word as though you were the true and only path to the eternal. I'm sorry that's the case, but it seems to be the only way that religions seem to be able to sink their teeth into ego centric western culture.

So, keep doin what you're doing! I know it's part of your lifestyle!
Personally, it doesn't jive with me, but you'll keep fighting for it.
Just know you're welcome here.

Jesus says: "The kingdom of heaven is spread out upon the earth now, it's just that people don't see it."
Namaste

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are