lemmex

I am an overt skeptic and often see things important only to me.

I didn’t know if I should post this under Bible Flaws or not. Sometimes I see Bible bashing. I think everyone knows the so-called flaws we speak of under that heading apply to all Religions. We all have certain truths but the question is how far should we carry it.

The flaws we have shown serve a purpose by example. These so-called flaws should be meant for the inquisitive and seekers for the purpose of instruction not as a tool of negativity or special or personal agenda. As far as being able to use the Bible to serve as an example means we should give credit to its openness. I respect the Bible in this light.

Each of us are at a different levels of belief in this group, some enlightened more then others, others not as much. As I read about some of the flaws I get a feeling behind them that sometimes troubles me. I’m not here to say if it’s meant to be negative, or positive, or neutral but to relfect and ask you to to. Sometimes they seem intentionally negative. Some people merely seem to want to expose a lie or really really want to make someone aware of a falsehood at any expense. And so I ask when discussing Biblical flaws is there a moral consideration?

I'll stick to Christianity and hope you understand this parallels religion across the board. Is there a predijuce here?

If we say something that changes or otherwise destroys what a person’s belief and that was our intention do we have responsibility of any kind. I don’t know if you’ve thought about it, but if you make a person abandon their belief then they are left without anything to believe it. There is a void that needs to be filled it is not merely a matter of substitution. If we argue just to prove something wrong and unable or unwilling to leave or offer something then you have basically harmed that person. Maybe we may even feel the rest of the group will handle that.

For those who are willing to point out the so-called mistakes, which by the way are totally meaningless and purely academic, does not deal with principle and spirituality, are you willing then to take the time to guide someone to go beyond the mistakes you say are there even though they are not. When you point to this imaginary (material) mistake and call it real then you have failed to understand.

I can criticize the Bible and do it very well, but this has no real value if that’s all I do because this does not allow me to know what Good is or what God is. Knitpicking is is the least and worst of what you should strive for if that is your basis. Within the group, there are some people I am concerned about simply because of their religiosity. If these people were to break they would have no safety or safety net. They would be lost beyond any comprehension they can imagine. Dose this concern you at all. These "flaws" are some very very serious stuff we are talking about, it is life affecting and life changing. The philosophy behind it is extremely important and do we do it with compasion.

I use my own history to explain my concern. I’ve been a pagan for a number of years and it’s taken me years to get to the point I am at. It's a hard travel. Aside from being a slow learner I am at a point of life (POL) and only now beginning to break from the most insecure part of my journey. I can tell you what is not but not what is. At this point I can’t ever define Good or God or why we have something over nothing to satisfy me.

I take it for granted we all understand whatever we say does not go beyond the boundaries of the group. This is something advance. When I left Christianity, which is not the same as breaking away, I cannot tell you the anxiety and fear of this experience. It lasted a very long time, it filled with me uncertainty and with a terrible sense loss. I was alone, mostly because this was a solitary journey. We’re a minority if you don’t know. I also had to deal with hostility and bigotry. (For me, this lead to reciprocal hostility and bigotry). The thing is, we don’t seek converts where other religions do. We are not like people who tend to be told what to do, this is not a criticism of anyone, I just think we have an awareness.

In any case, the difference is I made the choice to journey. We can criticize up to a point but not beyond. Sometimes I would like to see the group point out a flaw and then explain what it means. You' might be surpised to see the flaw transform into something else. There's a lot of wisdom in Christianity proper, enought to continue to surprise me plus it is our heritage. There seem to be so many levels to the Bible that one can be wrong and still be right. When trying to make the point is pointless is to excert force on someone to see their error, only their error. As far as my own journey, it was my decision to peruse and I committed myself to it regardless of where it led. It was a freely made choice.

On this journey you don't even know the person at the end. But I recall at one POL, I didn’t care if I hurt. If it destroyed someones belief it was not my fault. I've come to believe there is more than one path to God or whatever you like to call it. Is there one Heaven or as Jesus said. “A mansion of many rooms.” I cannot find fault with another who believes as they do.

Every Religion has good points and bad ones. If I could convince 200,000,000 people but this left them lost filled with fear without a path I would not do it. I would let them believe as the wanted. If some are at their own POL who either want to convert or dispel the so-called "big" lies and change the world and everyone in it, should you. Isn’t it just your point of view. I use the Cain and Able story when the bother said, “Am I my brothers keeper.” This was not a question.

Og

I don't really like the subtext describing this forum. It sounds argumentative. It's been my experience that people set out to lay down mechanical flaws in the structure of the bible in order to shut up fundamentalists who insist on a literal interpretation of the bible from front to back as actual fact. It works to varying degrees I suppose and relates differently to different people with different levels of investment or indoctrination into what the myths denote.

Personally, I think that mechanical flaws in the bible are entirely irrelevant. I think that each story that "conflicts" was designed and targeted at a certain people in a certain time. Holding up a flaw is like saying that a piece of software that works wonderfully on a mac doesn't work at all on a PC. Answer is: "Well duh, but what's your point."

There's nothing to be done for people who take a literal view of the contents of the bible. They will forever remain in ignorance with the covers pulled over their eyes. They've taken their spiritual and emotional development and solidified it. The finger that points to the stars is now labeled "a star" itself. They've missed the forest because the trees were in the way.

Trotting out the mechanical flaws in the bible is basically like pissing in the wind. The process (in my opinion) is a completely useless endeavor and tends to only make you messy because the context you're using to indicate the flaws has nothing to do with the text as it was written.

Let the literalists believe what they want to believe. Particularly in this day in age when all someone needs to do is hop on the internet, turn on their radio or their TV or just talk with any living social human being to know that the world is more complex that what a literal interpretation denotes. With borders shrinking and communications becoming instantaneous all over the world, fundamentalists become a dying breed because the fact of the matter is that its just a silly approach. It leads to shallow lives. Fundamentalists will die out slowly and may have some resurgences as response to the changes, but that's the death throws. It's been happening since the renaissance. Slowly but surely.

Are there incongruities in the bible? Are there contradictions about facts listed in several different texts? Are there different viewpoints of the same event expressed in the bible? Yes to all of these.

Does this mean the bible is flawed? No.

The contradictions are due to the form it's in now, not the environment in which it was written. It's like trying to play a record using a CD player. It's not the media's fault that you can't make it work and it doesn't mean that the media is flawed in any way.

It's like in "The Matrix" when the oracle told neo that he wasn't the one. Was it true? Literally, no. Did it lead to the truth? Most emphatically yes! There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

The literal interpreter would have shut down in this case. But the oracle gave him another piece of information. And when the mindset created by the first literal falsehood collided with the second reality, neo transcended. It's all about speaking to a condition. It's all about interfacing.

The literalist is crippled to this reality. This is why their approach is so wrong. They deny the nature of humanity.

mister_lister

We are all trying to find truth here, are we not? A true RATIONAL agnostic is solely interested in the truth.

When I point out a flaw or challenge something, it is in effort to bring to light a certain weakness of an arguement or idea. It is to urge further thought, introspection, and conversation. It is for the discovery of truth.

The originator of this thread ASSUMES that the motive for pointing out a flaw in the bible is negative, bashing, or just not NICE. I take exception to that. The fact is that the proponents of the Bible have the idea that the Bible is the "inspired WORD of GOD". They believe it is UNIVERSALLY applicable and true for everyone. That is a hefty claim! By pointing out a flaw in the Bible, a little more light is shed on exactly what the Bible is - the word of man.

The Bible is not the combined effort of all people on the Earth, but an effort of a population of people in one reigon of the world. What they think is right and wrong for their society, what God they choose to worship, how they wish to view existence - in a series of books we call the Bible. I take the Bible and other religious texts for exactly what they are - repositories of wisdom and mythology for particular cultures - text by man for a people of a culture. By pointing out a flaw, I am counteracting those that wish to apply the bible to every culture on Earth - that is the Great Commision - subduing all thought that is contrary.

There should be a forum like this and there MUST be arguement about this contraversial book.

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"The trouble is not with what we don't know, it is with what we think we know that just ain't so". ~ Mark Twain