lemmex

With respect to the story of Creation which is part of Genesis we have serveral conflicts as part of 2 separate stories. Story 1 is verse 1:1-30, and is more a state of perfection, the second tale recount is 2:1:24 and deals with our fall. Of course this shows the claim made by scholars of the differerent authors classifed as J and P and what they saw at that time.

Specific conflicts lay in what is suppose to be same but are not are: 1) Between Geneis 1: 27 and 2:7. Man is created on 2 different days, the sixth and third. (Of course Adam is suppose to be ha-adam) 2) Notice the preceding verse 2:4 there are no plants on earth and no mositure before Adam (man) is made, then God puts him (taken to be gender specific) in a Garden (not the earth proper as in story 1 with Eve, persumably this Garden is within a desert take notice of verse 2:9 versu verse 1:11). In the Story 1 plants exists and the earth appears to be lush and favorable, as you recall everything is seen "as Good" by God. 3) Most important to me, as a concept, notice the 2 Trees important to us are never in story 1, but placed in story 2. So we do know different importance between each story 4) The creation of woman is a little confused. In Genesis 1:27 woman (Eve ?)is made at the same time as man (Adam), and God blesses them both, whereas in story 2 Adam is made alone (first) and God sees he is lonely and after a period of time makes Eve. 5) In story 1 all living things come first, but actually in story 2, Adam comes first (verse 2:7), then some trees (verse 2:9), then the living creatures (verse 2:19), and then Eve (verse 2:21). This is completely unordered and illogical almost reverse of story 1, whereas there is a definate order, logic and perdictibility in the preceding story. These are among the most significant and is confused even more if we use the original source ha-adam (mankind) verus Adam (specific person) in which case we would have 2 different mankinds.

One point to make out of this is if indeed this is the word of God there would be no conflict. He wouldn't allow it. But the most significant conflict is the meaning we give the story(s). To us it is a particular story about the fall of man and sin, however to the original writers of the story as is, these stories had nothing to do with either sin or fall. I have go with the origial writers here and their meaning and what the story first meant. I can't disrepect the original writers in this regard. I mean that's the reason it was written, it doesn't matter I don't like it and couldn't write my own. From the Christian perspective how can you reconcile this. I mean, is it proper to take a story that meant something else and reinterpret it because we became (?) enlightened or do we sincerely (Christains) believe what we think now was always thought. I'm interested to know you're feeling on this.

My personal belief, Genesis in not one story, but two. There are 2 time periods and 2 events the Bible refers to in what we classify Genesis.


Did you know, there are also 2 stories within Noah.

Grant

Man... I am not in the mood for debating at the moment, lol

I'll dwell on this and get back with you before the end of the day. Sound good?

*hopes so*

-T-

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Hey.

DizzyDee

Grant, how do you decided what to take as metaphor and what to take as fact. You say the 6 days is probably a metaphor, but do you think that the early christians, or even the early hebrews saw it that way? Do you only decide something is metaphor when you can reconcile it to scientific facts?

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

MartheGod

Hey. I'm new here. I am agnostic and I have just started taking a Christianity, Judaism, and Islam religion class for my major. I haven't really read the Bible, but I plan to read it all some day.

I will say that I agree with LadyLuck with the 6 days thing. While some people are arguing that the 6 day thing is a metaphor, we don't know for sure. So, that would be a factual flaw. Also, there's the question of whether God made the animals and then Adam or if he made Adam and then the animals (See Genesis Chpt. 1 and 2). Oh, and Adam naming all the animals would take FOREVER (There has been some arguments about how many animals Adam actually had to name. See Genesis Chpt. 2)

And one of the BIGGEST flaws is that he made all of the animals at ONE time (depending on how you see the day thing, again. In my New King James Bible, it says that day is evening and morning... Whatever that means ^_^). Evolution DID occur over many, many years and so all the animals that ever existed weren't just made at one point.

Oh, and the snake thing. In Genesis 3:14, God tells the snake that he shall eat dust...Snakes don't eat dust!

That's all I can think of. Again, I'm just a student. ^_^ But just because no one on this forum has mentioned a flaw, it doesn't mean that there aren't any flaws.

Telimaktar

Here's what I found odd about Genisis. 6 days would logically be interpreted as 6 equal lengths of time, be it a physical 24 hours per days or a figurative 1000 years per day. Whatever it is. So how can you make the universe which has taken millions/billions of years to evolve to the stage we are at now (planets, moons, suns and galaxies) and then take millions/billions of years to create animals. It just doesn't add up.

And by that account the 7th day of rest should also take millions/billions of years, therefore any hope of salvation would be pretty far off.

marmalade

That is a humorous observation. It doesn't seem that the 6 equal lengths of time argument holds up. In order to argue this, one would need a weird notion about time or else disregard scientific theories about the development of the unierse and the evolution of the species.

Dunno

What stirkes me as funny is this.

If you believe in God then it is possible to make the Earth in 6 days because anyhing else would be you placing Human limits on a Supreme Being

But it really dosent matter if it was created in 6 days or 6 years It dosen't change the message of salvation that is in the Bible

marmalade

I agree that in theory anything is possible.

I think most Christians would agree with your second statement. Even those that take other Biblical claims literally probably don't take these particular Biblical claims literally.

As for Christ's message of salvation, you don't even need to believe anything specific about the Bible. Christians have interpreted the Bible many different ways and yet to be Christian means to believe in salvation in some form.

Gnostics and many early Christians also interpreted the Bible in widely varying ways especially when contrasted with modern interpretations. I'm sure many early believers wouldn't even accept the KJV as a valid interpretation of their holy text, nor would they accept the books that were included and excluded.

Og, AB, and myself all accept Christ's message of salvation. Its just we don't interpret it the way most fundamentalists do. In fact, there are Hindus and Buddhists who accept Christ's message of salvation.

romansh

The tricky bit is that if god made the world in six days, six years or whatever, god did so leaving a trail of irrefutable evidence pointing back 4 or 5 billion years. And the universe a bit longer (according to the bible the universe was made at about the same time if I remember correctly).

regarding the message .... it all depends on your interpretation. I personally don't particularly like attacking the bible for its literal inaccuracies, it never was meant to be taken literally (or at least large sections)

For example I don't really have a clue what the garden of Eden is. It sounds like a nice place to be..... I'm willing to take a risk and go there. How? Why were Adam and Eve thrown out...... they disobeyed God and and learnt of the nature of good and evil? So I am going to try and retrace their steps and unlearn what is good and evil; see where it leads me?

And I say this as a devout agnostic. no smileys .... perfectly seriously
all the best

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade