Bible Prophecy - Page 14

dameedna · 05-23-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

The Jews, of all people, have been fiercely monotheistic.

Not really from my readings and understanding. They believed that other Gods existed. Yaweh, was "their" God a tribal God. The bible references other "gods" they believed existed. They simply thought it was the wrong God to follow.

They became Monothiestic and dated their "universal" God back to the time of creation but the view that they were 'always" monothiestic is highly debated and personally, I support those that say they weren't. Just like all cultures and religions, they evolved.

But <shrug> we have very little real historical records to confirm it either way, so it's a bit of conjecture.

Composer · 05-23-2008, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

This is very true GX.
I agree 100% with everything you said about spirituality.

But as for religions as the reason for killing,
We can blame any institution of man for killing other men. So that leads me back to men killing men.

When push comes to shove, it is a few greedy people killing other people for the stuff they want. They will use anything to do it.

It is not religion.

Actually, I tend to agree with you on this. I think we make a grave error in judgement by believing religion is the main instigator of human killing. Some other "mechanism" will rear it's head and because we've blamed it all on relgion we won't see the other possibilities till it may be too late.A number of items I think can and will be used to cause human deaths

1. Religion
2. Economic standpoint(Socialism/capitalism)
3. Political Standpoint(Democracy/Authoritarian/communism)
4. Racial/dehumanizing
5. Sex/control of sexual behaviour
6. Beauty
7. Youth/age
8. Altruism(Hitler believed he was saving the world and creating a super human race)
9. Scientific endeavours(don't think it can't happen, it already has and will continue to)

Oh yes, we have the capacity to use whatever tool we have at our disposal to kill each other. When I really began to realize this, it was actually quite humbling. I can't use something "outside" of humanity such as religion to justify our own basic(and sometimes) horrible nature. Religion is a part of US, not the other way around.

Having said that, I do think Religion is a particularly GOOD tool, to do this because it does not need any justification. When people have "GOD" on their side, they seem to be capable of anything regardless of it's impact.

But it isn't the ONLY tool, or the "REASON" people kill. In south Africa, men with aids have been known to rape babies, because of a rumour that was started, indicating if a man has aids and rapes a child he will be cured. Of course the children (babies) died, and there have been MANY of them that this occured to.

Fear, is a very big motivator, and the above list of "tools/mechanisms/beliefs" will be used to justify death when fear is the underlying cause.

Another example, Abortion is the killing of a potential human and has occured(rarely) when a baby is viable outside of the womb. It is mainly legal, and is being considered as a basic human right, by different groups such as branches of the UN, and Amnesty international.

For the Record, I am completely Pro-choice, but this does highlight that humans can and will kill and they will do it because they believe what they are doing is correct a lot of the time.

I think we need to accept it as a human issue, not a religious one if we are to fix it.

Well thought out.

The Bible states that the greatest adversary to God is the propensity of the human heart (self-will) to disobey God. (Jer. 17: 9) KJV

This is what makes me laugh when a naughty Satan being is blamed for enticing men to sin. The Bible (Jer. 17: 9) KJS is absolutely and unambiguously clear that man's inherent propensity to self will and disobedience, outclasses ' above all else ' including this silly alleged ' him ' the Satan spirit being.

Thank you

Composer · 05-23-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

The Jews, of all people, have been fiercely monotheistic.

Not really from my readings and understanding. They believed that other Gods existed. Yaweh, was "their" God a tribal God. The bible references other "gods" they believed existed. They simply thought it was the wrong God to follow.

They became Monothiestic and dated their "universal" God back to the time of creation but the view that they were 'always" monothiestic is highly debated and personally, I support those that say they weren't. Just like all cultures and religions, they evolved.

But <shrug> we have very little real historical records to confirm it either way, so it's a bit of conjecture.

I would be interested in the quotes you claim the Jews used to demonstrate their belief in literal multiple gods and your evidence from any Jews that this was ever the case?

Thanks

dameedna · 05-23-2008, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

Well thought out.

Ty, I've thought about it lots. hehe

Quote:

The Bible states that the greatest adversary to God is the propensity of the human heart (self-will) to disobey God. (Jer. 17: 9) KJV

See the only issue I have with this, is the notion of disobeying God. It's a tough one. I am disobeying God, to SOME human being regardless of what religion I follow.

As a result I find there is something intrinsicly wrong in the belief that human failings are a result of disobeying God. Ultimately it is meaningless to me. How am I to know, that I am, or am not disobeying?

By believing every book that tells me "these are the rules", by believeing every religion that tells me "these are the rules"? By having faith in a human being who tells me what to do or think or what rule God has laid down?

I cannot support the notion that human struggles is a result of man not obeying God. I will however, change it just slightly and say that Man struggles to submit to a power bigger than itself. That does not mean a "god" or a religion to me and it is a concept I can accept philisophically.

Quote:

This is what makes me laugh when a naughty Satan being is blamed for enticing men to sin. The Bible (Jer. 17: 9) KJS is absolutely and unambiguously clear that man's inherent propensity to self will and disobedience, outclasses ' above all else ' including this silly alleged ' him ' the Satan spirit being.

Thank you

Yeah, I'll agree with you on this one. To put an entity into the world to "entice man" specifically and deliberately, then blame humans for falling for it turns God into a monster. Believing that "The devil made me do it" is a ridiculous excuse. The entire thing is just silly.

WE are what does the stupid stuff. I've been incredibly disturbed by certain religious groups that blame the "devil" for things. They ultimately blame "something other than themselves" for the wrong's of the world and they EXTEND that satanic view, toward other humans.

IE, it is the feminists, the socialists, the blacks, the whites, the muslims , the athiests that are to blame for societies ills. They take great comfort, it blaming Satan(as they understand him/her) and others for the wrongs of the world.

The concept of Satan just opens the door, to an inability to face ones own shadow(This is how Carl Jung defined evil).

dameedna · 05-23-2008, 04:11 AM

[quote=Composer;30091]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

The Jews, of all people, have been fiercely monotheistic.

Not really from my readings and understanding. They believed that other Gods existed. Yaweh, was "their" God a tribal God. The bible references other "gods" they believed existed. They simply thought it was the wrong God to follow.

They became Monothiestic and dated their "universal" God back to the time of creation but the view that they were 'always" monothiestic is highly debated and personally, I support those that say they weren't. Just like all cultures and religions, they evolved.

But <shrug> we have very little real historical records to confirm it either way, so it's a bit of conjecture.

It may take me a bit to get back to you on the specifics(I'm not really in the mood to track it down tonight Sorry), but I promise I will do so.

One person that does speak about it, is Bishop Spong and I believe he mentions it is in his latest book, but I've read all of them so I may have the wrong book.

I'll try and track it down, when I get a moment this weekend

Composer · 05-23-2008, 04:23 AM

[quote=dameedna;30093]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

The Jews, of all people, have been fiercely monotheistic.

Not really from my readings and understanding. They believed that other Gods existed. Yaweh, was "their" God a tribal God. The bible references other "gods" they believed existed. They simply thought it was the wrong God to follow.

They became Monothiestic and dated their "universal" God back to the time of creation but the view that they were 'always" monothiestic is highly debated and personally, I support those that say they weren't. Just like all cultures and religions, they evolved.

But <shrug> we have very little real historical records to confirm it either way, so it's a bit of conjecture.

It may take me a bit to get back to you on the specifics(I'm not really in the mood to track it down tonight Sorry), but I promise I will do so.

That would be great thanks and then I can research more and let you know what I discover.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

One person that does speak about it, is Bishop Spong and I believe he mentions it is in his latest book, but I've read all of them so I may have the wrong book.

Hmmm! he is a bit of a worry from what I know about him? last I heard they are thinking of taking his collar away from him!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameedna

I'll try and track it down, when I get a moment this weekend

**debdodd** · 05-23-2008, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

People kill people … not religions.

AB,
This may be true in a literal sense, but you cant discount the fact that people were motivated and found excuse to kill and behave brutally out of religious zealotry and religious self righteousness on an individual and group level. History is filled with such examples of wars and brutality in the name of religion. The biggest mistake man made in the quest for spirituality was to declare ultimate truth from words instead of from spirit and not seeing words for the mere low level tools that they are.

This is very true GX.
I agree 100% with everything you said about spirituality.

But as for religions as the reason for killing,
We can blame any institution of man for killing other men. So that leads me back to men killing men.

When push comes to shove, it is a few greedy people killing other people for the stuff they want. They will use anything to do it.

It is not religion.

just curious ... you said men killing men ..... do you think it would be diferent if women and not men were in "control" (sorry for lack of a better word but you know what I mean)?

AB517 · 05-23-2008, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debdodd

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

People kill people … not religions.

AB,
This may be true in a literal sense, but you cant discount the fact that people were motivated and found excuse to kill and behave brutally out of religious zealotry and religious self righteousness on an individual and group level. History is filled with such examples of wars and brutality in the name of religion. The biggest mistake man made in the quest for spirituality was to declare ultimate truth from words instead of from spirit and not seeing words for the mere low level tools that they are.

This is very true GX.
I agree 100% with everything you said about spirituality.

But as for religions as the reason for killing,
We can blame any institution of man for killing other men. So that leads me back to men killing men.

When push comes to shove, it is a few greedy people killing other people for the stuff they want. They will use anything to do it.

It is not religion.

just curious ... you said men killing men ..... do you think it would be diferent if women and not men were in "control" (sorry for lack of a better word but you know what I mean)?

OMG....
Believe it or not ... YES!!!!!

.

I have only one major concern. Crazy greedy men are predictable. I have supervised many people in my day, and I by no means mean to be offensive, but as a guy, women were the hardest for me to figure out.

dameedna · 05-23-2008, 07:01 AM

Quote:

=Composer;30094Hmmm! he is a bit of a worry from what I know about him? last I heard they are thinking of taking his collar away from him!

hehe..no, he's retired as a bishop.

He's an incredible man, and myself being a former militant athiest he is one of the few people, that made the story of Jesus christ mean something to me beyond a bunch of silly, zombie raising, virgin birth stories.

He is a scary figure for those that want to claim biblical accuracy because he cuts them off, in religious ways at every turn, not scientific ones. He battles the failure of religion not through science but through religion itself

He may not be correct in all he say's, but he embraces life and the challenges that religions face and he does so, with a deep faith, in God.

GX · 05-23-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

People kill people … not religions.

AB,
This may be true in a literal sense, but you cant discount the fact that people were motivated and found excuse to kill and behave brutally out of religious zealotry and religious self righteousness on an individual and group level. History is filled with such examples of wars and brutality in the name of religion. The biggest mistake man made in the quest for spirituality was to declare ultimate truth from words instead of from spirit and not seeing words for the mere low level tools that they are.

This is very true GX.
I agree 100% with everything you said about spirituality.

But as for religions as the reason for killing,
We can blame any institution of man for killing other men. So that leads me back to men killing men.

When push comes to shove, it is a few greedy people killing other people for the stuff they want. They will use anything to do it.

It is not religion.

Im not blaming the "religion" in and of itself for murder AB, Im just saying there are cases where men get motivation and excuses for killing from people that represent the religion and in the name of the religion because they come to sincerely believe that the religion justifies it. There is brainwashing going on here. Maybe the men at the top have ulterior motives but many a foot soldier has been seduced by the lies and truly believes what their religious superiors are telling them. Just look at the suicide bombers who scream "allahu akbar" before detonating themselves (that is but one of many examples). Its not as black and white as you say. There are many reasons men kill other men, dameedna came up with quite a list and killing in the name of religion cant be denied.