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Originally Posted by Abel  You betray your doubts concerning the Word of God by accusing John of inventing what he saw. |
There is nothing illogical or unreasonable by suggesting that John of Patmos's work contains
allegory rather than relating actual events or visions that he saw. As I explained to you, allegory is a very old, very common literary device.
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Originally Posted by Abel If you do not believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God, then how do you justify accusing me of ripping things out of context? |
I do not need to believe in the literal truth of scripture, to recognize that you pick and choose things, ignoring some pieces in order to rework others. You're engaging in
a la carte theology.
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Originally Posted by Abel First, in Isaiah, you are correct that verse 4 is addressed to the King of Babylon, however, this is a Proverb. Look at who is being addressed in verse 12. Now, everyone knows who Lucifer is. He is the Devil, not merely the king of Babylon. |
Actually, "Lucifer" is the Latin translation (first used by St Jerome) of the Hebrew הילל (
HYLL) which probably means "crescent moon" and was connected with the "morning star" (which is what
lucifer originally meant in Latin). At any rate, it hardly makes a difference, since it is also a vocative expression in the original Hebrew as well as in Jerome's Latin translation, meaning it is a descriptor of address. You will note that it is followed (in English translation) by a second vocative expression, "son of the dawn." In neither case has the address of the narrative switched to a new person; it is
still the king of Babylon to whom the author speaks.
Thus, "Lucifer" is not the name of a being. In fact, modern Bible translations (such as the NASB) do not render this as "Lucifer," instead they maintain the descriptive expression "star of the morning." That is ... modern Bible translators
do not agree with your position that it is a name!
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Originally Posted by Abel Verses 12-15 are known as the "Five Foolish I Will's of Satan". This is the origin of the sin of pride. Satan wanted to be God. |
Since "Satan" is not addressed in Isaiah 14, this cannot be true — regardless of what the passage is "known as."
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Originally Posted by Abel Second, in Ezekiel, again you are correct in that verse 12 is a lamentation against the king of Tyre. |
You agree with me twice ... yet somehow I expect you will not, ultimately, agree.
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Originally Posted by Abel Yet, if you look closely you will see that God's sumation goes beyond the king of Tyre. Verse 13 says this being was in the Garden of Eden. Verse 14 states this being was the anointed Cherub (Angelic Being). Verse 14 also states this being at one time was upon the Holy Mount of God. Verse 17 predicts the war in Heaven when Satan will be cast out of God's presense. |
These are all expressions or idioms by which the king of Tyre is being addressed, to emphasize his "fallen" state. It does not mean that he is literally said to have come from Eden or any of the rest of it.
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Originally Posted by Abel These descriptions could not possibly be directed to a mere human individual. |
Actually, they very well
could refer to humans, if one understands they are expressions, idioms, honorifics.
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Originally Posted by Abel The vision is not of Satan in his own person, but of Satan fulfilling himself in and through an earthly king who arrogates to himself divine honours. |
You admit, then, that an address to a human king is mingled in there, somehow. OK.
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Originally Posted by Abel Your attitude towards me is rather coarse. If you disagree with my views, that is fine, but please try to maintain a gentleman's posture even if you are unable to present a Christian one. |
I see nothing "coarse" about pointing out your inconsistencies. You claim to read the Bible literally, yet you discard pieces of it, and do not even know what its original words mean; further you dismiss any possibility of allegory or metaphor, when ancient literature has plenty of both and it is not unreasonable for the Bible authors to have used them.