noeticcenter

Noetic Response:

It all depends on who defines what as SALVATION & ENLIGHTENMENT

For example: " The god of this World (is it the brahman of samsara?) has BLINDED (if there is no darkness, there need be no enlightenment) the MINDS
(reason begins there, not emotions, not the bodies) of those who BELIEVE NOT (EVIDENTIAL written record during a period of two millennia by over 40 human authors of almost 20 different backgrounds from Sovereigns to Servants), lest the LIGHT (ENLIGHTENMENT) of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL(OBJECTIVE) of the MESSIAH (EVIDENTIAL via over two hundred direct PROPHETIC FULFILLMENTS, besides thousands of indirect pointers from about 1000 years even before Moses) who is the IMAGE (INCARNATION) of Elohim should SHINE (ENLIGHTEN) unto them......For ELOHIM who commanded the light to shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts, to give the LIGHT of the KNOWLEDGE of the GLORY of ELOHIM in the face of YAH SHUA MESSIAH.
2Corinthians 4: 4-5.

Niranjan Writes: Have no idea what this means!!!

Noetic Response:

Well, the original verse, 2 Corinthians 4: 4-5 is very simple. Parsing it will read as follows:
1. The god of this world is the yama of Hinduism, god of death (see Hebrews 2: 14)
2. Yama blinded the MINDS of people
3. Lest the Light of the Glorious Gospel of the Messiah who is the image (incranation) of Elohim should shine unto them (ENLIGHTEN them)
4. The same Elohim who commanded the light to shine out of darkness (see Genesis 1:2) has shone in human HEARTS (minds) to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of Elohim (ENLIGHTENMENT) in the Face of Yah Shua Messiah (see John ch. 1)

Originally Posted by noeticcenter

1. Every family has to visit Jerusalem Temple at least one Feast of the Lord an year, usually Passover.

Niranjan asks:

Does not mean that Jesus had visited the Temple every year. He was a free , independent, restless young man, who had a mind of his own. He certainly was not satisfied by the arguments of the priests in the Temple at the age of 12,and was found discussing and debating with them.

Noetic Response:

1. “ And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth and was SUBJECT unto them.. and increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2: 52-52, the record of a Greek Physician and Historian, meticulous for details). Yearly Passover visit to the temple was mandatory for all Jewish Families. “ Now His parents went to Jerusalem EVERY year at the Feast of the Passover” (Luke 2: 41).

The Messiah is the Passover Lamb ordained so “BEFORE the foundation of the world” and “ SLAIN FROM the foundation of the world” (Peter Revelation )
Originally Posted by noeticcenter

2. Greek Physician and Historian who was very specific for details give this account: " AND He came to Nazareth (after Baptism by John) and as His CUSTOM was He went into the Synagogue on the Sabath Day and stood up to read..." Luke 4: 16. He read from the Torah scrolls (Prophet Isaiah, prophesying about what HE was doing right there).

Niranjan asks:

I have read this, and this did not take place during the 'unknown years', but after that.

Noetic Response: No, He only continued His CUSTOM at Nazareth from Age Tweve to Age 30. The Baptism is at Age 30 for initiation into the Public Ministry. He returned to Nazareth after 40 days in the desert tempted by yama (god of this world, of death).

Niranjan writes:

For your information, there is no mention of caste system in the Vedas, which was created in the later times by the priests ( brahmins ).

The majority of the Rishis , who composed the Vedas themselves belonged to the lower economic groups. One of them was even the son of a prostitute, and he was taken by his guru as a disciple, when he honestly admitted his lineage and showed his character in the process , which immensely pleased his guru.


Noetic Response:

No body is arguing this point. The Aryan Invasion brought in the Varna discriminations. The Dravidians whom they conquered and later intermarried were of COPPER color. Varna is not Vedic, it is Aryan.

Niranjan Writes:

And Nirvana is a subjective experience. There indeed can be no eyewitness account. It is completely in oneself, though its visible manifestations are in great wisdom, sensation of peaceful vibrations,serenity and love in a buddhas presence, and faster development of ones spiritual state in his presence.

And the Vedas are basically monistic or monotheistic. All the gods are said by the Vedas to have emerged from the supreme impersonal Lord Brahman.

Non-theistic does not strictly mean atheistic.

Noetic Response.

True, non-theism is not necessarily Atheism, but Budha’s version of non-theism is for all practical purposes Atheism, unless you define theism as Nirvana and every one who goes into Nirvana as a deity.

All experiences are in some way experiments. All experiments to be valid must be falsifiable. You see the color RED. That is a very REAL experiment with photons and real lenses and optical nerves and wavelengths. “There is nothing subjective about that PART”. There are over 6 billion conscious people today who can attest to seeing RED and be REAL Eye witnesses. The question as to why certain wavelength is seen as Red and another as Yellow is a different question, altogether.

Nirvana to be a falsifiable experiment must be verifiable by third person experience. As to what Nirvana really is, or why Nirvana is felt as Enlightment (Red) and not as Darkness (Yellow) is an altogether different question. That does not belong to the Experimental realm. Normal people with no color blindness can see RED, can picture RED and share that EXPERIMENTAL experience with each other. All subjective experiences are thus evidential and SUBSTANTIALLY objective.

So, also was the Resurrection of the Messiah. There was only one Messiah and He is not dying and rising up every day. If that were the case, then it will be a routine event similar to Sunrise and Sunset. That is why, that event had to be certified by Eyewitnesses- both friends and foes. There are well established universal Rules of Evidence to verify if an eye witness account is true. The more the number of Eyewitnesses, the easier it is to verify.

Simon Greenly was an internationally known Royale Professor of Law at Harvard. He has authored a Three Volume work on Rules of Evidence which is still the final authority on evidence. He mentioned Resurrection as example of non-evidential report. He was an Orhtodox Jew. A student asked him: “ Have you examined the evidence?” He said no, admitted his mistake and promised the class he will do so. He did. Took him over an year of research and study, beginning with the Gospels and the Book of Acts. He then went to the class and confessed:” Sorry, Resurrection records pass all rules of evidence”.


Is there any rule of evidence applicable for Nirvana? Your comments on moneism and monotheism is the standard Vedantic position. Swami Vivekananda used that to make his inroads into the Western ethos, through the Unitarian folks. Sankar did the same with the Buddhism which once engulfed India. [Vedas are really very different from folksy Hinduism. Nehru’s Discovery of India mentions that Vedas even offer beef as a dainty! Long ago, I was once with a Brahmin lawyer in the Empress of Britain, from England. I had Fish and Chips. He had beef. I was curious, he told me “These are Brittish Cows”, they should be killed and eaten].

No matter how you coat it, a polytheistic monism CANNOT be the TRIUNE MONOTHEISM of the Messiah.